Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Emily: I'm going to record.
Okay, so, Alicia, we're going to
record a bit of this pregame as
we get kind of ramped up here.
So I will say clap really loud
when we are ready to commence.
There's a big rainstorm and windstorm
going on right now here in my town, so,
if my power randomly goes out and we lose
the recording, thank you all for coming,
and I very much appreciate you being here.
Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight, Jeremy has had his internet
rocked by a hurricane, so we can't have
him, uh, with us sadly, but, he is here
in spirit Which is too bad because we are
watching, or we are discussing a fantastic
film, Boots Riley's Sorry to Bother You.
And I am your host this I am your
host this evening, doing my best.
I'm Emily, the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
friendly neighborhood Megamoth, and I
am joined by some wondrous individuals.
First off challenging the sexy
werewolf, sexy vampire binary
is my usual co host, Ben Kahn.
How are you tonight,
Ben: Ben?
Rooting for you!
Thank
Emily: you!
Yeah, we're, I'm trying my best.
Ben: Giving you, uh, three
cheers and all my support!
No, I am very excited to be talking
about what is honestly one of
my favorite movies of all time.
Emily: This is a fantastic film.
And our guest tonight, first off, we have
the writer, editor, podcaster, and all
around Renaissance person, Amanda Meadows.
Amanda, how are you?
Amanda: Hello.
Hello.
I'm good.
And yourselves?
Without a hurricane, still edging out.
If we're doing rankings.
It's been chilly
Ben: and a little rainy over
here, but I guess that's not worth
fetching about when your co host
just got taken out by a hurricane.
Amanda: Yeah, I was whining about them
Santa Ana winds just a day or two ago.
I'm gonna keep that quiet
and keep that to myself.
Emily: I mean, all conditions
are valid at this point.
Amanda: Climate change
is truly everywhere.
Yeah, climate,
Emily: no matter how it manifests.
Ben: It's 2024.
We have normalized having a bad time.
Amanda: We have.
Thank God.
It took a long time for
y'all to catch up to us.
Now you see the horrors too.
Finally.
Ben: To be fair, nobody has ever accused
my people of not being quick to complain.
Amanda: I mean, it's important, like,
all of us who come from heritages of
joyful bantering and, like, loving.
Argumentation.
It's important for us to come
together in times like these.
Complain
Ben: together.
That's why the Talmud is the greatest
living document, because have you ever
seen someone throw the craziest shade
at a dude who died 400 years earlier?
Amanda: Yes.
Yeah.
People love the book, the burn book.
We,
Elana: well, I was hosting a fundraiser
for Jews for Racial and Economic Justice
over Hanukkah, and it was all going
to be just doing riffing, all the riff
tracks on one of the Hallmark Hanukkah
movies and we were like, Well, this
is our heritage is like, and analyzing
the text and saying what's wrong.
And in this case, the text is trash.
So,
Amanda: yes, that's how we
Oh, my God, I think I know it.
Was it the one about the girl
who like just discovers Hanukkah?
Yes, it was
Ben: from a work
Elana: this was no, no, the real
mysterious part was the Jewish guy who
somehow despite living in the world,
the Knew nothing about Christmas.
Um, which it's the
Amanda: craziest element
Elana: I
I don't think you engage with the
world then because there's sort of
Christian hegemony everywhere, guys.
. Yeah.
Ben: I think if you're doing a Hallmark
Knoah movie, you can really pad the
runtime by just having one character
sit down and watch the entire Rugrats
Hanukkah special start to finish
Elana: Bliss.
It would be so much better
Emily: that way.
I would be remiss if I
didn't introduce you, Alana.
I just want to jump in, introducing
our other guest, Alana Levin.
Podcaster, activist, reviewer, and riffer
of Hanukkah Hallmark movies, and that's
an important job because there needs to be
that, you know, we need that in our lives.
I didn't know there were
Hallmark Hanukkah movies.
It's new, it's a new
Elana: thing.
It's like the past several years only.
Ben: Somebody has to keep
Jeremy Jordan employed.
Emily: Yeah,
Amanda: it's chocolate hummus new,
like they don't know what they
don't know what they're doing.
Emily: They're trying everything,
spaghetti against the wall
matzah against the wall
Ben: It bounces.
For this movie though, we have a movie
that throws so many things at the wall
and they all fucking hit a bullseye.
Emily: Yeah, no, I love this, this is
the first time I've seen this movie.
Is this the first time ever, or has
anyone here seen this movie before?
Yeah,
Elana: I saw, I saw it in the
theaters when it came out.
I hadn't seen it since and
I was glad I rewatched.
I definitely think that I hadn't,
like, forgotten any of the major plot
points, but it was very good that
I re-watched it, and I, I do, it's
Emily: hard, it's hard
Ben: to forget, especially
you go into it blind.
It's really, this was a rewatch for me
and it's really on this rewatch that
it enters my favorite movies of all
time because first time watching it.
You get to that, you know, twist,
like when there's a half hour
left and you get to that ending.
And first time I watched, I
went like, well, that fucking
came from outta nowhere.
And on the rewatch I went, there was
no other way it could have ended.
. Everything was, everything was
clearly building to this all along.
Actually the classic
Emily: horse people gambit.
You see it all the time in film.
Amanda, was it your first time
or have you seen it before?
Amanda: I was an eager opening
weekend viewer at the theaters.
And I actually didn't get a chance to
rewatch it before this podcast, but
I'm going to rewatch it this weekend.
It's really burned into me.
It's, uh, like, I remember that.
It's like the experience of seeing
it in the theaters and really just
kind of having finger snaps for
everything and just being like,
yes, boots, this is a unified theory
of all of the end stage capitalism
bullshit that we're being pushed
through, um, we will all be chattel.
Elana: Yeah, the spaces in which
I organize in like you know my
own background is I worked in
directly in the labor movement
for labor unions, including.
The one of the labor unions who was
organizing call center workers, ergo,
like the workers in this particular
film in my part of the labor movement,
the, uh, I mean, are we, I guess
we've, you've said the H word.
So I'll say here, the horse
pivot was divisive, actually.
There are a lot of people who were upset
that he went in that more fantastical
direction, feeling like the realities
of what happens in a, in an organizing
campaign and what things companies are
actually up to is outlandish enough that
it like, they felt like it, this is not
my opinion, but I feel like it's worth it.
Vocal it's like worth verbalizing
that it is outlandish enough that in
some ways, including that additional
heightened level makes people not take
the real stuff, like to be in the No,
this is literally shit that happens.
And I don't know.
I've had, I've also heard people
like in the movement say that they
felt the ending was too bleak.
You know, he has a win and
then he loses basically.
And I'm like
Ben: that last piece more.
Uh, the ending is a
billionaire about to get his.
Fucking head stomped in.
Emily: I mean, he's still a horse
Ben: person.
I don't know, being like, teenage
billionaire fighting mutant horses.
Um, that's a wash in my book.
I I think
Amanda: this is where intersectionality
and an understanding of black media and
how black bodies move through capitalism
would make it a little bit easier for,
I think, some people to, like, accept
the, the big fantastical jump because
I do think it's necessary after just
having seen it the one time just because
I felt like we needed a cartoonish
representation of what this turns us
into beyond what we've already seen.
It like throws a new, like, Like pangram
at the collage of pangrams that we
weren't expecting and I think it forces
us to make room in our understandings
of what capitalism reduces us to, what
minstrelsy reduces us to, what, all of
the, the most, uh, self effacing survival
mechanisms do to just further You know,
keep ourselves under the boot and what
that looks like when it ratchets up on us.
I, I really liked that, but
it's also like, it's a very
difficult thing to expect.
Ben: That is so well said.
I mean,
Elana: from his earlier music
video work though, like he's
always been interested in.
Bringing in the fantastical and
sort of seeing heightened reality.
And yeah, I think you're pulling from
magical realism is a good one here.
In like the things that people
encounter in their daily lives.
Like if you watch the Kuh's
video for shit, which one is it?
The, uh, we've got the guillotine.
Like it's really, I think a
trial run for it's the visuals,
at least, uh, at certain points.
In
Emily: the movie.
Yeah.
Well, and for me it's, I'm kind of
coming at it from the opposite direction
because I've seen, I'm a Virgo and
so I came into this Oh, expecting
for it to be fantastical in some way.
And I also, from the beginning of
the movie, I felt that there was a
certain amount of magical realism.
Which is, I was thinking during the film
that it reminded me a lot of the Michel
Gondry movies, and then I saw that he had
a Michel Gondry, like, reference there
directly, and I, but that I, that's really
cool to me, because a lot of those movies
do have they're, you know, kind of airy
and full of, like, manic pixie dream girls
and things like that, where this movie is
talking about something a little bit, uh,
Ben: Detroit was very much
not a manic pixie dream girl.
No,
Emily: she was like a serious, like,
Detroit is an amazing powerful goddess.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, the horse thing.
I mean, you know, you're going
to listen to this podcast.
You're going to find out everything
you need to know about this movie.
So I hope you watched it.
The horse thing for me just translated
to like the extremity of dehumanization
and, you know, the, the, how a lot of
literally that happens, but we just don't
connect because you know, there's a lot of
things that people can excuse with jargon.
You know, and that's like a big part
of what this movie is about and about
capitalism and all that kind of stuff.
But, um.
I
Ben: think Amanda, I think you
really nailed it about needing to
see that like extreme caricature
of what the systems turn people
into and what the actions lead to.
Amanda: I think.
It's kind of what American visual
literacy can understand in a lot of ways.
Ben: Yeah.
I think the rejection that comes from,
like, I don't know, the, like you
said, that segment of the audience that
didn't like that twist or that element.
I think it also comes from, like, for
some, like, kind of rejecting that
there was that magical realism and
a little absurdism the whole time.
Like, oh yeah, this telemarketing, uh,
like, job company has a magical high
tech golden elevator full of, like,
elite telemarketers who make millions
of dollars telemarketing rare elements
and guns at this telemarketing company,
and it's like, I think for some reason,
Even though, again, you have Eyepatch
wearin fuckin bowler hat Amari Hardwick.
Yeah, and I'm speaking like Patton Oswalt.
I think it's for some reason, it's
for some uh, it's not until you're
faced with literal horse people,
that you go, I think this world
might not totally hold together!
Well, the
Emily: fact that he was, the white voices
were literal white voices overdubbed,
like we had David Cross and Patton
Oswalt, which I'm like, good job, guys.
Listen to some of the whitest
voices you'll ever hear.
The reediest of
Amanda: reedy voices.
Ben: Let me get into the cast
and, uh, the cast and directors.
This movie was written and directed
by Boots Riley and it stars,
holy fucking shit, this cast.
Right.
Lakeith Stanfield.
Giving such a powerhouse performance,
Tessa Thompson being a fucking
goddess, Jermaine Fowler being such
the opposite of his role in The
Blackening, fucking, range, Amari
Hardwick, who I don't even know how
to fucking describe Amari Hardwick
in this movie again, that he has like
one, like three lines that he actually
speaks and the rest is Pat and Oswalt.
Or he just looks menacing
and fucking fly as hell.
Terry Crews, and then, uh, So good.
Oh yeah.
Stephen Yeun, who is just wonderful
as always features the voices of
David Cross and Patton Oswalt.
And not Steve Buscemi.
That is like a rumor going
around that Steve Buscemi was
Danny Glover's white voice.
It is not Steve Buscemi, it is
just a crew member on the movie.
Oh yeah, Danny Glover.
This one was so fucking stacked
that I forgot about Danny Glover.
Bringing up the rear is Armie Hammer,
who is honestly incredible in this
movie, for all of the worst reasons.
Yeah.
So unnerving.
I'm not sure how much acting was actually
done on Armie Hammer's part for this
Emily: film.
Yeah, he understood the assignment
in ways that I don't think
that a lot of people should.
Yeah.
Amanda: Fun fact.
He was born on the Cayman Islands.
Like, he was, like, born and
raised on the Cayman Islands.
Like, he was born.
He is attached by that role.
Yeah.
Truly.
He himself is a holding company.
Ben: He's like, fucked up racist
billionaire, you could say.
I think I could swing it.
I might be able to handle
this role, Armie Havisek.
When the news,
Elana: when the sort of news stories
about his private life began to
come out, people were legitimately
confused because they were like, no,
no, that was just in that movie we
Ben: watched.
And they were like, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This is
Elana: real.
This is, we're not confused that
this is like a new news story
about things he did in real life.
He has not actually created
any horse people, but he did.
it was, it was like abuse allegations.
Emily: There were some vor
Amanda: fetish related abuse allegations.
Yeah.
That's what I remember.
Yeah.
Ben: I just, and I, and I didn't come
up with this joke, but I can't get
over that his name is literally, that
he is the heir to the Arm and Hammer
fortune literally named Army Hammer.
That is a I didn't know that!
That is a Pizzerina Sbarro from
30 Rock level joke of a name.
Is that
Amanda: true?
I can't go to the Hammer Museum
Emily: because it's just too gross.
Ben: Arm and Hammer, his name is, he is
literally the heir to Arm and Hammer.
And that's why his name is Armie
Emily: Hammer.
Maybe he is making horse people
because that is like the most
that is a fucking late stage
capitalist joke right there, right?
Holy shit.
Holy shit.
It's
Amanda: on the nose.
Emily: Yeah, it's like breaking my nose
and so on the nose, but, yeah, so Ben,
tell us about what happens in this, in
Ben: this film.
Oh my God, this movie.
So this movie takes us through the
journey of one that cashes Cash Green
as he searches for larger meaning in his
life and worries about the sun exploding.
Big same.
He gets a job at Regalview Telemarketer
alongside his friend Salvador and Steven
Yun, who is named Squeeze for some reason.
I really, you really don't expect
a man named Squeeze to be like, I'm
big into organized labor rights.
Squeeze is more the guy who's like,
hey, I stole my nephew's Adderall.
That's an awkward one.
Emily: It is Oakland, though, remember.
Ben: Oh, yeah, it's, uh, this
whole movie is Oakland as fuck.
Yeah.
And Manages to get a job but struggles
until wise Denny Glover for once a black
man got his own magical black man, and
I appreciate that in this movie teaches
him the magic of the white voice.
Whereupon Lakeith Stanfield can
make himself sound like David
Cross, and it never stops being
weird and amazing in this movie.
And thanks to the magical power
of his white voice, he shoots
up the telemarketing ladder.
Did you know there was
a telemarketing ladder?
Well, there is.
There is here.
Yes, where he is eventually promoted
by the actress who plays the agent who
says the F word a lot in The Other Two.
I don't know her name.
I just saw it, I'm like, oh shit,
yeah, The Other Two, I know you.
If you haven't seen The Other Two.
Fuckin good show.
Anyway, Cash is eventually
promoted to the power caller
position where he reports to Mr.
Bleep.
Alicia, I don't know if you want
to throw in an actual bleep,
but, eh, fuck it, just Mr.
Bleep is fine.
Mr.
Bleep?
Mr.
yeah, Mr.
Bleep.
Or, to
Emily: his friends, just,
Ben: BLEEP.
Yeah, they sell arms and Hammers?
Well, slave labor, who swings hammers.
But Cash is like, oh, this
seems fucked up, but you know.
Capitalism, which, needless to say
alienates him from his friends who are
forming a nascent talent marketers union,
and his radical, uh, Detroit, who is
fuckin amazing in every way, and is also
part of the Left Eye Movement organization
fighting back against, don't worry, the,
like, Armie Hammer's slavery startup,
Emily: Don't forget the, uh, the fact that
he owes money to Terry Crews, his uncle.
His uncle's gonna lose
Elana: the house, and I feel like the
pressure that his uncle is feeling and
that he feels for trying to care of
him, like, I think it's important that
his motivation is, like, On a certain
level is like, I need to survive.
Emily: It's desperate.
Amanda: Yeah, it's literally
about retaining housing.
Yeah, like, yeah, and which is
a specifically like existential
crisis in the Bay Area where it's,
we're losing black people in.
In every metropolis and like, in
Oakland, you know, the ways that we
cleverly get people booted out of
their homes you know, so they could
flip it to Google workers, like,
Ben: Usually not even cleverly.
No.
Amanda: Yeah.
Truly.
No.
Ben: Oh, man.
No, it is.
And one thing I definitely appreciate
this movie is that, you know, it's
that, You know, rags to riches to
middle class, but it does acknowledge
that it's like, well, hold on.
No, it's still rich is bad, but
still important to get to that.
You know, there is still a level of.
Survivability that you still
need to be able to afford and
there's nothing wrong with that.
Elana: Yeah, I loved the shot of the door
garage door accidentally getting opened
on the neighborhood and I have to feel
like I, you know, somebody's like lived in
that garage and had that, you know, door
get opened on them when the garage opener
Emily: gets busted.
I have known several people
who have lived in garages.
Um, yeah, I mean, Werner Park is a it is
trying really hard to be a family town
and not a college town and it's working.
It's pretty sad.
But like, when I started going to college
here, there was a lot of people living
in garages and, you know, that this
is during, like, the housing crash.
Like, this is, uh, during the recession.
And people still couldn't afford shit.
But, yeah, like the Bay Area, there's a
lot of things I could say about the Bay
Area ness of this movie but the, that
moment with the garage really started
off that kind of magical realism.
setting for me even though it was a
very practical and real thing, the way
that they showed it where the background
becomes like burnt out in the lens of the
camera and almost like as if the walls
are falling away from the situation, which
is echoed later, but we'll get to that.
Ben: I think a bit of magic, one
of the earliest bits of magical
realism for me in this movie, even
though it's not actually in any way
supernatural or otherworldly is just
Detroit's amazing murder kill earrings.
Emily: All of her earrings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Ben: I also like her, the future
is female ejaculation t shirt.
I have a question
Elana: though, actually.
I was surprised that we were
covering the movie as a horror,
from the horror perspective because
that's just not how I've ever.
Ben: Sometimes that night, sometimes
that night gets cast real wide.
I just
Emily: wanted to talk about this movie.
We just, you know, there are
horrifying elements of this movie.
Amanda: Yeah, I'd say there's
the element of body horrors.
You know, in, in sort of a, in sort
of a psychological way and then later
in like a physiological way at first
it's like a disembodied voice that's,
that is a very like specific kind of
violence and does, usually doesn't
really get thought of as body horror,
but this is a really great case for that.
Emily: Yeah.
Also, sometimes
Elana: you just gotta treat
Ben: yourself.
Amanda: Guys, I need a little
Emily: sweet treaties.
Yeah.
That scene at Armie Hammer's, uh,
party, I don't know, I can't remember
the name, it's even Lift or whatever.
Yeah.
Where he's telling cash to rap.
I, if that's not horror,
I don't know what is.
Ben: Okay.
So good , I know that I certainly
cannot relate to the racial, any of
the racial element of that scene.
Yes.
But to the specific experience of
being put on the scene of being put
on the spot and people demanding
that I wrap the P-T-S-D-I got.
fucking seventh grade after eight mile
came out and everyone in my white as hell
suburb decided we we know how to freestyle
rap when we're going to do a rap paddles
and i'm like please don't please don't
Emily: that really when we talk
about white boy summer that
Amanda: was the real white boy
summer That, that was a couple of
Ben: years.
Oh, yeah.
Amanda: Oh, God.
I grew up in Orange County.
It was rough, man.
Oh, I'm sorry.
High school.
Oh, boy.
The high school.
Emily: The high school you.
Jesus.
Ben: Like, so, So, You say this
movie isn't a horror, but that
scene fucking gave me the sweats.
It's
Elana: anxiety producing, for sure.
Yes.
Ben: Which I real I recognize that
under that definition we'll be
covering uncut gems pretty soon, but
Amanda: Right.
Oh
Elana: no, I mean, it's
not even a critique.
It's just interesting to me to see
it approached through that lens.
That just wasn't what I was
anticipating, that's all.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting
lines to approach it
Emily: through.
Yeah, well, I thought about that too when
I was watching it because it's definitely
more of a comedy and it's like, you know,
would I categorize I'm a Virgo as horror?
Not really, but there are elements
of it that are kind of like body
surreal and things like that.
I wouldn't say body horror, but the
surreal elements of that and what they
discuss maybe, but this was, I think
this is definitely more horror than that.
I,
Ben: I think this movie.
Falls back on our old friend,
existentially terrifying.
Yeah, existentially.
Emily: We haven't asked those questions in
Ben: a while.
Where I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm
laughing, but I feel deeply like, just
a, just deeply despair about the world.
Emily: Yeah, if all, if all existentially
terrifying movies did have this kind
of lighthearted element, I think
it'd be easier for that to swallow.
But anyway, we were on a recap.
Ben: Yes.
So, anyway, uh, Cash is being
a cool guy, capitalism dog,
power caller, while That's got a
Emily: really good descriptor.
That's a lot of good descriptors
Amanda: there.
Cool powered dog capitalism.
I love, I love that Boobly
Emily: t shirt.
Ex unmobile maxed.
Ben: all the other telemarketers go on
strike and try to stop the power calls
from going in, which doesn't really work
until one day someone, throws a Coke can
at Cash's head, and for some reason that
act of violence immediately becomes the
most viral thing in the fuckin world.
Emily: I mean, this is a world
where the show I got the beach, the
shit beat out of me or whatever.
It's like,
Ben: Oh, not a, not a critique again.
Like, yeah, that is such a part of this.
Like, I end absurdist reality that show.
And that it is the sense of like,
wait, what the fuck's this timeline?
Like this happened yesterday.
And it's already a viral video.
Like, It's a, it happens in the morning.
It's a viral video that night and
it's on the news the next morning.
When he sees
Elana: a whole line of small children
in that costume as him, like going
for Halloween, it's just devastating.
Is it even
Emily: Halloween?
Nobody else is dressed in any other kind
Ben: of costume.
It's
Amanda: just that.
That's the best part is the way he
condenses the cycle of exploitation.
Yes.
You know, and you get to see every
iteration of that and that, and he
uses it for comedic heighten, which is
like, it's just so consistent to the
way like the marginalized experience
through labor is just like constantly
laughing to avoid from crying from the
absurdities that are foisted on you.
Yeah.
You work in service or
telemarketing or what have you.
And then
Elana: the woman who throws the can at him
then becomes like an advertisement model.
Like the Pepsi commercial, Kendall Jenner.
Amanda: Yeah.
It's so good.
Ben: Oh my God.
The Kendall Jenner Pepsi commercial.
I forgot
Emily: about that.
Holy shit.
Amanda: Did that
Elana: happen after this?
Or before that,
Ben: I came after this.
I want to say
Emily: this movie is
way ahead of its time.
And a lot of things for a moment.
I thought it was like, I
forgot that it was in 2018 and
that was before the pandemic.
Yeah, and yeah, like, there's
Elana: 1 line.
Sorry, there's I'll let you
Emily: finish your thing.
Sorry.
I'm done.
Go ahead.
Oh,
Elana: there, there was something
that was absolutely prescient.
That from one of the lines, yeah.
Oh shit, actually, I thought I copied
Ben: it, didn't I?
Is it when Tessa Thompson, is it when
Tessa Thompson tells, like, he said,
She says Claudia, so this one is way,
Elana: this one is way more
Ben: subtle.
And Jermaine followed a kiss?
Well, while you're looking for
Amanda: the, while you're looking for
the line, I would say, like, there
are just, like, literal manifestations
in reality that have transpired
in the last five years, like, like
Amazon introducing workhouses.
Like, you know, and reintroducing this
idea of a company town that's truly,
you know, a closed in plantation hell
box where people are, you know, where
they're just cramming people in.
We're gonna
Ben: live in the metaverse.
Amanda: Yeah, listen,
that's if you're lucky.
Gosh, you better hope you were
born in the income bracket
that gets you in the metaverse.
Elana: The quote was from the
conversation that Cash and Squeeze
are having at the bar or the cafe.
Cash says, I tried to change it.
I tried to stop it, but it's just
right in front of their faces.
They're turning human beings into
monstrosities and nobody gives a fuck.
And Squeeze replies, most people that saw
you on that screen, knew calling their
congressman wasn't going to do shit.
If you get shown a problem but have no
idea how to control it, then you just
decide to get used to the problem.
So I just looked at Frank and
I was like, so that's COVID.
That's
Amanda: COVID right
Elana: there.
Because people don't feel like they have
the ability to do anything about it.
They pretend it's not happening
despite the fact that they're
literally being disabled by it
Amanda: right now.
And that's right now.
You know, those are the, like, the
gift that keeps on giving from the
endless organized neglect, you know,
we've all been left to our own devices.
And when that's the case, you know,
there's, and we're all this siloed
off and isolated from our, because of
work or being displaced or whatever.
You don't have the ability to connect
and collectivize, which is what
everybody's been doing since this
movie has come out, which is exciting.
Emily: Yeah, 2017 was when the
Kendall is it Kendall Jenner,
the God that was, that was 2017.
Oh,
Ben: okay.
So this was after Oh my.
Oof.
Yeah.
Amanda: It was like a, it was
one thing you did not predict.
It was a early BLM you know,
Emily: sta
.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah.
but anyway, cash is doing just
such a good job as a power caller.
he gets called ov he gets invited
to a party by Stephen Lift, aka
Armie Hammer, as Armie Hammer.
Uh, oh, more foreshadowing for the horse
reveal is all the times they show Stephen
Lift's Brock and he's on top of a horse.
They see the lifted horse
imagery like early and often,
Emily: and like a lot of crazy rich
white dudes obsessed with horses in
ways that are unsettling, especially
his horse plate that he smokes
coke or smokes that he sniffs coke
Ben: off of.
Not you Daniel Radcliffe
in the play Equus.
You just keep on keeping on.
No, you're
Emily: that's art.
I will
Ben: stand by it.
That's what the kids like.
Daniel Radcliffe, like, theatrical
performances from 14 years ago.
I'm right on the pulse.
Yeah.
Anyway, but before he can go to the
party, he has to go to Detroit's
even though they've broken up, he
wants to go to Detroit's art show,
where, oh, Detroit's art show.
How are we feeling about
Detroit's art show, everybody?
Emily: I've seen similar shows.
Feeling lots of ways.
Yeah.
Elana: in one of my other many
previous lives, I actually like
briefly worked at a graffiti art
gallery in Greenpoint in like 2002.
Amanda: Ground zero,
Elana: you know, very much outside of
the traditional art world, but I had a
lot of interaction with it, you know,
um, And I really appreciated how the
movie really dug into how fucked up
and commodified that world is as well.
And, like, as much as Detroit is,
like, pointing out All of these
really important things to cash
about what work is doing to him.
Like, she's also being forced into that in
order to survive as an artist too, right?
And like, yeah,
Amanda: she's also transforming
who she has to be to get the
money needed to keep surviving.
Ben: Tessa Thompson does this
entire scene in a British accent
and nobody calls attention to it.
It's
Emily: amazing.
The subtitles say white voice for her.
It's
Amanda: a, it's a brilliant grift.
Ben: Is it actually a white
voice or is it just Tessa
Thompson doing a British accent?
Oh, it's her.
It's gotta be
Emily: her.
I think it's her, but it's, but it
says on the, for the subtitles, if
you watch it with, with captions.
It says white voice.
So that's a little extra for you.
But I get it.
I mean, like, cause I've recently watching
things like the curse and when we watched
Velvet Buzzsaw and also the new Candyman
thinking about you know, ethnicity and art
and performance art and how, like, it kind
of fits in that segment of exploration of
the art scene in, like, especially with
characters of color, you know, like black
characters and Native American characters.
I
Elana: mean, like, the white people
want access to the emotions and feelings
and cultural history of people of
color, and they want to be able to
indulge themselves in participating.
In them and like, they want access.
They want to be in people's like
private lives and private spaces.
Like, it's really, really
vampiric and creepy and
Emily: racist.
And it's like, I mean, it's, been
like that for so long, like, these
Native American chiefs that were
invited to like Louie's court.
Back in 17 has the, or what I, you
know, back there were there was so
much fetishization and just, you
know, powerful white people going
like, Oh, isn't this interesting?
And basically putting these
concepts on display, like,
they're just some kind of item.
Anyway, we're still, I think we're still
at the party, at Armie Hammer's party.
Ben: Uh, yes, he goes to the party
where he meets Stephen Lift, who is
just, oh my god, fucking like, every
worst white guy you rolled up into one
super worst white guy is Steve Lift.
Emily: He makes Edward Norton
in Glass Onion look cute.
Yeah, he makes him look
Amanda: endearing.
Yeah, it takes a lot of insight to
make a yet another like new rich
white guy character and for it to
hit as good as his does it feels very
contemporary plutocrat in like, just
the way Boots Ratty lavishes on the
visual specifics and the references.
Ben: Steve, I mean Lift has about
Two scenes in the movie and that, but
that's enough to make him one of my
favorite movie villains of all time.
Emily: It's so much going on.
It's like, just visually,
there's a lot of really great,
like, just visual storytelling.
Ben: Yeah, we get, you know, we get
Cash being put on the spot and forced
to rap, which we talked about, which
leads to the wildness of him bombing
and just, I mean, would it be fair
to say goes full self minstrel show?
Like, just yelling the N word
a whole bunch to the terrible
delight of these, this crowd?
Amanda: This is sort of a resigned
giving them what they want with the
minimum effort that we all learn to
do when in these kinds of environments
that we can't escape readily from.
You learn how to give what the bare
minimum of what's necessary to survive,
to pass this level, you know, before you
get to the next level of nonsense racism.
His performance was so good,
Elana: like his fear and
misery is so transparent.
Ben: It definitely felt like an emotional
low point in the movie for the character,
like a real term of like, of, this
isn't, of, oh, this isn't worth it.
Amanda: Yeah, and it's a great
impulsive way for him to like in
the moment be shown to himself
what he's putting himself through.
And it's like you can see him
also just starting to realize
that this is wearing on him.
Ben: What I really like about this is
also you get the parallel to, Detroit's
performance where she is on stage and
just having batteries and pig's blood
thrown at her while reciting quotes
from The Last Dragon, which just,
that fucking sent me The Last Dragon.
That was what that was
Emily: from.
Yes.
Oh God.
I,
Ben: oh.
Yeah, the survival mechanism That'll be
next week, we're covering The Last Dragon.
Are we?
That's a horror movie, right?
Yeah.
No, no, we're not doing The Last Dragon.
I
Emily: think we're talking about It is
Ben: my recommendation,
though, go see The Last Dragon.
But, you know, you get to but Which, Ash
loyally objects to and tries to stop and
questions how Detroit can put up with,
can demean herself in his eyes, put up
with that, and yet he is put in that,
like, in such a similar situation, but
without any of her agency and self voice.
Yeah, girl, subtle voice,
that's not a thing.
Y'all know what I mean, though.
Yeah, but no,
Emily: I know what you mean.
This is, it's two, two different ways
of looking at the same situation.
Ben: It's a very nice parallel
and contrast, I found.
Emily: Which kind of makes her
art that much more poignant.
I mean, I know a lot of people, you know,
it would seem extreme and it would seem,
ridiculous but, kind of so self effacing
that it is like over the top suffering
art, however she's deciding to do it,
as opposed to, uh, Cash, who is like now
put on the spot and is dancing for these
people that are giving him, you know,
a handwritten note that says, I will
give you a million dollars, smiley face.
Ben: Yeah, it was like a hundred million.
A
Emily: hundred million.
There were a lot of zeros.
A lot of
Ben: zeros.
I was distracted.
I will say I would not become a
horse person for one million dollars,
but for 100 million, I don't know.
I'd consider becoming a horse person.
It's upsetting.
No, not the whole becoming.
Weird PSYOP CIA MLK, not
that part, fuck that noise.
Amanda: Yeah, I can see it happening
in a, in an extreme martyr situation.
I would do it so, you know, feed the block
and then just kind of count down the clock
Ben: until it's time to euthanize.
Yeah, be a horse person, get
a hundred million dollars.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, T bonding Asian,
like that fuckin exists.
Yeah, there was
Emily: there was made up, like, the
secret sauce, the secret special sauce.
Ben: Oh, but anyway, getting ahead
of ourselves, uh, Amari Hardwick
gives his one line in his own voice
to give, Cash the instructions to
see Lift in this absurd fucking house
with all its fucking green doors.
Sorry, all of it.
Jade.
Yes.
Oh, again, a great villainous line from
a person who I believe did not have to
pretend too hard to be a piece of shit.
Fucking Lyft yelling, like,
it was clearly an olive door.
Emily: Yeah, no, that's the Jade door.
Ben: Died.
Where, Cash goes, finds Lyft, does some
cocaine, air quotes, if you couldn't see
through this audio media of me doing air
Emily: quotes.
I could hear you say, say, I just want
you to know that the way that you said
that The air quotes were very explicit,
like, you don't, yeah, yeah, you
Ben: did it.
Huzzah!
Hooray for me!
and explains his plan to create a race
of horse people slave workers who will
be stronger and have bigger penises.
And I
Emily: think there was something there
for, uh, Armie Hammer, or at least
this character, or maybe both, that was
serving something very personal for him.
But I could tell.
Yeah.
And
Elana: also that he felt that that
was a trade off that because of the
penises, other people buy into it.
He's like, because you only
care about your dick size,
you will be okay with this.
Emily: Yeah.
And I mean, that's.
Yeah, it's
Amanda: also like a tie to like some,
uh, I don't think specific violence
is I won't name from chattel slavery.
Um, so it is an echo of some messages
that were given to men who had to work.
It's
Ben: so.
It's so interesting, and it's like,
and it's such a level of like, next
level crazy fucked up ness, to be
like, like, normal, like, normal
villains do like, yeah, I'ma create
a race of Slave horse people.
And that's where most villains stop.
What puts Steven Lift at a whole other
level is that he does have the emotional
intelligence and a wherewithal to be like,
Oh, my slave la My horse people slaves
are clearly gonna hate this, though.
And they're clearly gonna become a
marginalized underclass that's gonna
have just get a whole bunch of other
issues like This is clearly gonna breed
resentment and, uh, resistance, and
rather than be stopping and go, then
maybe this is something I shouldn't
do, his next level response is,
Therefore, I must preempt and control
the horse civil rights movement.
Yeah, yeah,
Amanda: I mean, that
is how policy is made.
You know, these are choices
that are very well informed.
They know what things are going
to do to people before they do
Emily: them.
Yeah.
This is the shit Henry
Ben: Kissinger would come up with.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
, I mean, and it's, I mean it's
crazy people on cocaine, but Yeah.
You know, there is isn't just crazy
people, like they do have forethought
and they do think of the consequences
and then they do it anyway,
Elana: I think it points to the
fact that we all understand that.
There is going to be a resistance
to oppression, but then how does
that, how can that be controlled
by the people in the existing
power structure funding, right?
Which is like a way that donors and
funders of nonprofit entities try to
exert control over the groups that they're
sponsoring and just having that be built
into these projections for what will
happen next is like, very informed by,
Ben: I mean, that Yeah.
By the nonprofit industrial
complex, basically.
I mean, that has proven to be one
of the most frustrating things
about capitalism is its ability to
consume and co opt almost anything
designed to fight capitalism is
infuriating and astonishing.
Amanda: Yes, truly.
I think I mentioned this in the
last episode that I was on about the
other black girl, but the concept of
elite capture is, you know, it's here
too, where it is about absorbing the
goodwill of the revolutionary force
while also neutralizing the threat.
Usually it's by giving that entity a
little bit of what they want enough that
makes them more malleable and then it just
kind of gets pushed and pushed from there.
Yeah,
Ben: unfortunately, it is not a gradual
enough push to go full on horse people.
Not yet.
Emily: Well, really, we
are drinking Red Bulls.
Ben: I heard it gives you wings.
Elana: We
Amanda: got a lot of human
Americans taking horse medicines.
Ben: Remember?
I hate to get all, like, old non binary
person nostalgic, but I miss when Red
Bull commercials were just like, cute
little cartoon people getting into
humorous situations where they need to,
like, grow angel wings to get out of
Emily: it.
I mean, they were also very horny.
Yeah,
Ben: it's cartoons that
comes with the territory.
Yeah,
Amanda: I miss when Red Bull
wasn't also a record label.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily: Or it wasn't like telling people to
jump off cliffs into mud holes with their,
like, hurly burly machines or whatever.
Ben: I gotta be honest, that
I'm fully in support of.
Amanda: That's just
some European wackiness.
Yeah, y'all be doing that, so.
Ben: Yeah, like, look,
here's my answer to that.
Look, anyone who makes it, fuck
yeah, you achieve that greatness
and cure your dreams of flight.
Anyone who doesn't make it
Eh, probably for the best.
Elana: Yeah, no, I mean, like,
Emily: it just, Red Bull shouldn't
be involved, as far as I'm concerned.
You
Ben: know, I miss when Red Bull
commercials were, Oh no, I'm
an adorable cartoon person,
and I'm trapped on an island.
Oh good, an energy drink washed
up, and now I can fly away.
Amanda: when it was like Farside
Cartoons, it was best, and it should
have never evolved from there.
Ben: I miss Farside, yeah, yeah.
fine, this is nothing.
Emily: Okay.
You shouldn't be drinking taurine,
is what I'm trying to say.
Hmm.
Ben: Yeah, cash uses his new platform as
the got hit in head with coke guy to blow
the whistle and let everyone know about
Steve Lift making horse people slaves.
Unfortunately!
In the realest moment of the whole fucking
film, all this does is make their stock
go way up, because every rich asshole
is like, Damn, that's a great idea,
and what a scientific breakthrough.
Emily: A real SpaceX situation there.
Yeah.
Which,
Ben: I guess when you stop to think about
it, it's like, if you've gotten so far as
to make full on horse people, like, I'm
like, I feel like you could have stopped
partway through and just been like, Hey,
we made the world's best steroid and HH.
Or just like, look at those
maids, they're all growing maids.
It's like, you kind of just
sold that as like a hair growth
medication, made fucking billions,
like hundreds of millions on
Amanda: that.
But that's, but that's the
promise of vertical integration.
Once they've done that, they can then.
sell off all of the components
and byproducts of that
process as separate products.
So eventually they'll be like
the shitty watered down version
of the horse juice, right?
Like, and then there'll be like an
endless long tail of, of copycats.
It will be immersed in it.
Ben: Eventually someone, you'll be like,
Oh, are you one of them horse people?
Be like, nah, I can't wait
for it to be a donkey person.
Amanda: Yeah, exactly.
That's just Sinister Face 2, 3, 4, 5, you
Ben: know.
Look, the end game of the Sorry to
Bother You universe is that eventually
it will just become that talking animal
world from Guardians of the Galaxy 3.
I
Emily: would have seen that, but
now I'm thinking about rock and rule
which is, I assume the same thing,
and I'm just gonna assume that it
is the same thing as rock and rule.
Ben: I, like, Nuke York.
I feel like there could've almost
been a bonus thing where, like, Armie
Hammers just, like, explains the plot
of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and was
like, I want to make that in real life.
I want real time turtle people and
I want to train them to be ninjas
and then they'll be my bodyguards.
Emily: Yeah.
I mean, yeah, there's, there is that.
I thought about that.
But Cash discovers the horse people
when he's trying to find the bathroom.
And, uh, and then I think
he's offered the 100
Ben: million.
100 million.
It is like that.
He does that.
He does think he's in the bathroom
because you have the horses just be
like, help me help me crying in pain.
And he has just like, no, I want
to deal with your bathroom issues.
Which, again, it's a terrifying it's
like a disturbing ass scene, but I do
find that, like, particular moment funny.
But yeah, but yeah, at the very least
they can stop Regalview and get the
strike going, and get the union,
and make them negotiate with the
union, so they get, you know, they,
they're like, Avengers assemble, like.
Get me, get me fuckin Steven Yeun and
Jermaine Fowler, get me Detroit's like,
art pieces, get me a football team
is here now, get me horse people, and
you know, their powers combined, they
form Break a straw, you know, they
are able to hold the line and prevent
the power callers from getting in.
Cash settles into his new life as part
of the telemarketers union, ready to
go back to work at Regalview in a more
just, equitable, collectivist structure.
When, oh no, turns out that coke
that Lift made him sort actually
was turning it into horse powder.
Dun dun dun.
Emily: Yes.
But then
Ben: not Yeah, but then not Dun Dun
Dun because he gets all the horse
people together and is like, Hey, let's
murder the shit out of Stephen Lift.
And that's a real ending.
Yes.
Emily: It's a
Ben: wild ass ride and I love it so much.
Chef's kiss.
Uh,
Emily: did, am if I am?
Probably not.
Ben: Not with this
Emily: movie.
I was gonna say like, the only thing that
could be, the only way that those cops
wouldn't shoot the protesters is that
because they were in football uniforms,
which is like the only time that they
could do any sort of like violence is
because they were in football uniforms.
Is that?
Ben: I thought it was
because they weren't cops.
They were like private.
Well,
Emily: they're also private
Ben: security.
But I also just thought like,
well, that would stop them from.
I love having
Elana: the football team come
together to support them though,
like the power of having the whole
community turn out on the picket line.
Amanda: Yeah, it's cool.
And it's like, I mean, you know, we don't
like get into it, but it's like, oh, yeah,
this is another type of worker whose body
is the core product in a lot of ways.
Yes, you know, and they're, they're
not in control of how their bodies
Ben: used, especially student athletes.
Oh, my God.
You know, have exactly been in court.
Yeah, I think I love it.
Oh, yeah.
Just how student athletes who we've
seen in court fighting to just not
have their very images used completely
without their consent and without any.
Payment for
Elana: it.
And they're, they're fighting to be
allowed to unionize because people
keep, they keep saying that they're
not workers, they're students when
they're obviously fucking workers.
Exactly.
You know, there was an amazing, like,
moment in one of the news coverage of
the early picket lines where they're
saying like, you know, members of
other local unions and obviously
college students are all turning out.
I'm like, yes, the picket line is
definitely accurately diverse in that way.
I also was going to say that you
know, they have costume day at the
picket line and that is also real.
Like, Like, so I was like, they're
using costumed at the picket line
as like a way to stealth do this
action around the getting hit
in the head with a can imagery.
So there were some real touches from
actual union campaign strategy that
made their way into the movie that
I thought were, it was really fun.
And one of the things I thought
was also really special was
that this movie actually has
someone who is a union organizer.
There's like literally a
Broadway play about someone.
organizing, Starbucks, and doesn't
have anyone from a union involved.
And it's like, that's amazing.
But like, in reality, generally
speaking, there are unions, like
staff involved in union campaigns,
because it's really fucking hard.
It's really.
And so it was cool to be like,
In the way that you're like,
stuff isn't magic, it takes work.
Like, it was good to see that,
that acknowledged in the story.
And hopefully somebody who might not
have considered, like, that that is
a career they could go into could
see, like, I could, like, go and talk
to my coworkers and make trouble.
And, like, that would be
a starting point for them.
And I also get the sense that, like,
Steven's character is someone who,
you know, organized, you In other
workplaces as well as this one.
And so he's bringing
that expertise with him.
And when he has that first meeting with
cash and with I'm so forgetting his
friend who's Salvador Salvador early on.
And he's like, the organizing
conversations he's having
with them are all like.
Organizing conversations you
would have with someone on the job
Ben: He goes from town to town fighting
for labor rights and getting STDs.
Which is also like That scene
Elana: was so fucking funny.
I was also like, and fair.
but so it was good to see that
represented in a movie as a
job that exists in the world.
And, you know, not idealized,
but not made into a bad guy.
And I don't think I've ever seen,
like, I have, I don't know the last
time I saw, like, what felt like
a good legit portrayal of a union.
Organizer in a movie and
like a very long time.
So that was really fun.
and like, he's hot and he's also
hot kind of in the way a lot
of union organizers are hot.
So I was like, yeah, this, this adds up.
This all
Ben: adds up.
That to me was one of the most, the
biggest takeaways from this movie
is like, Oh, Steven Yeun and Tessa
Thompson have like legit chemistry.
They had more chemistry than
Tessa and Lakeith did, I thought.
Emily: Well, he did have that, I
think they had to like, they needed
to take him down a bit with that
goatee, because like, Steven Yen by
himself is so attractive that like, You
know, you're like, oh, that, that's,
now, that's idealism right there.
But then like having a little bit of
like embarrassing facial hair, I'm
like, that's something that you can see
past, but you know, it's not like ideal.
Yeah.
I would
Ben: so watch David Yoon and Tessa
Thompson in a romcom together.
Yeah.
Any day of the
Emily: week.
It's just such a great performer.
I mean Oh yeah.
Great performers.
They
Ben: can do it.
Emily: Yeah.
There's there's a lot of
things about the movie that.
Are so that just ride the line
between comedy, like the dark comedy
and the realism, which I think is
Ben: like Terry Cruz's gigantic has
dispenser cross for his diabetes.
I love
Elana: it.
Yeah.
Terry Cruz is so
Emily: good.
Yeah.
But like, but all these things, like
the fact that squeeze was formerly
a union organizer for sign twirlers.
Yeah.
all these things that.
Are very sort of surreal
in a way, but just
Ben: in that way I did
love the sign twirling.
Emily: Yeah, that is just funny
enough to be real, you know?
Just like Armie Hammer being
the fuckin Armin Hammer.
heir to the fortune or some shit.
I'm still dealing with that.
It's too
Amanda: absurd not to be true somehow.
Yeah.
Just like that's how like zany reality is.
Well, I
Elana: mean, every kind of worker
can be in a union ultimately.
I mean, the musicians union in New
York City a million years ago, I was
talking to our lawyer and he said
he used to be the lawyer for the
American Federation of Variety Workers,
which included the performers in the
Rockettes and the Christmas Spectacular.
So he said, he's like, I'm Jewish, but
I know Santa is real because I have
worked on his bargaining contract.
Santa has a job category
at Rockefeller Center.
And I'm like, right, of course,
because he would have a slightly
different contract than the dancers.
Ben: I've got a question.
Yes.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Bedroom windows on 3 sides.
That's too much, right?
Too many windows,
Elana: right?
I love the shot.
It's such a good shot.
It's such a good shot.
Emily: It is very good,
but it is very like.
I think I've seen those buildings
in Oakland and Berkeley.
I've seen people changing
in those buildings.
That are on the intersection
in Oakland, New York.
Ben: That's the worry, that's the concern.
That's too many, like two sides?
Fine.
Three?
Too many sides.
That's too exposed.
Elana: Well, I mean,
Amanda: that's a lot of curtains to buy.
Ben: Exactly.
You're tripling up on
your curtain costs now.
What
Emily: did you guys
Elana: think about the photo of
his dad that he brings with him
and the Xerox of him, the changing
Ben: photo?
Do we even know that that's his dad or
just know it's a magical changing photo?
Emily: I assumed it was his dad.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought,
but I do love the change the magic.
I mean, it's just another little they also
Ben: implied that something
happened to him in high school
that they then never follow up on.
Emily: I mean, same for
all of us though, right?
Sorry, sorry to bring that up.
Oh,
Ben: too real, Emily.
Emily: Sorry.
I'm just too real.
Ben: Yeah, no, that I'm like, my first I
was like, damn, that's a nice ass pirate.
Then my second thought was, I'm like.
I wouldn't wanna sleep in that room.
I would pick a different room to sleep in
,
Emily: right?
Mm-Hmm.
. Yeah.
But yeah, those are those building's on
the, uh, the that's fine for a living
Ben: room bedroom.
Mm.
I don't know.
Emily: Yeah.
Pretty much on display for everybody.
Ben: Yeah.
Now we are in our, the
Porsche of the episode.
That's just, uh, Hey, so what were
some weird mo what were some moments
that you just really wanna talk about?
I definitely wanna talk
about the compliment fight.
I was dying.
Emily: Yes.
Ben: I love that.
I know what a passive aggressive, I
don't know what, but it was, I know
there was just the raw funniness of
it, but I also like how it's like,
even when they're fighting, these two
are like, These two can't be truly
spiteful towards one another that
there's like, there's something, you
know, while it was cash, you know,
doing a little, uh, class betrayal.
There was something wholesome about it.
Emily: Yeah, although I think
that, I mean, part of me thought
it was metaphor, but then I think
also that it represents a kind of.
the aggressive, like, positive vibes kind
of doublespeak that people have going on.
Absolutely,
Ben: but I do think there is the element,
because they did kept cutting back.
So, like, other characters
being like, man, what the
Emily: fuck's going on here?
And Steven Yen being like, Are
they arguing or what the fuck?
Danny Glover knew exactly
what was going on.
No,
Ben: even Danny Glover looks like
he didn't know what the fuck.
Really, I thought Danny had
a look of like, man, what the
Emily: fuck?
No, he was like, you guys
got, you have to calm down.
You know, this is gonna come
to someone losing a lot of
Ben: money over drugs.
I, I guess that's the beauty
of acting and interpretation.
But, uh, that scene was such a Delight.
Emily: Have any of you
been in a fight like that?
Elana: I'm not remembering what it I'm not
sure I remember what scene you're speaking
Ben: about.
Oh, that's where Cash and
Salvador are fighting after
Cash becomes a power caller.
And they just, and they're being
very mad at each other, but they just
keep saying how good the other one
smells and how they wish they have.
A good day and good things happen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Are you passive aggressively
Amanda: I mean, it's ironic and it's
also a fun, uh, way that to like
illustrate the way black folks can
have internalized the white tactics.
And it's like a fun.
It's like a fun inversion of.
You know, of like a real read where
instead of reading someone, you're
doing everything but reading them and
giving them these pointing out elements
of them that you know, that you like,
or want more of, or what, and it's
like, it all, it reads as teasing.
Emily: And that's how
Amanda: I experienced it.
I grew up in.
I've been in versions of that
conversation where it's like, when you
know, you're in front of mixed company.
Ben: I like what you're saying about,
like, internalizing white tactics,
because I grew up in Connecticut.
I've definitely seen some
hateful complimenting before.
Emily: Exactly.
It's like, it's the most aggressive
version of the, compliments that
professional white women give each
other when they're competing to me.
Exactly.
Yeah, it's, it's definitely
like a mean girls kind of like,
Oh, you're so Oh, thank you.
Oh,
Amanda: I love where you got your coffee.
Oh, you know, yeah, it shows you like
the very real kind of passion passive
aggression that you have to engage in.
to stay afloat because you can't
have direct conflict having direct
conflict in, you know, white owned
workplaces is, I mean, there's a lot
of studies just about communication
styles and you know, people don't like
being told explicitly what's wrong.
And if they were alone, they'd
tell each other explicitly what
they don't like about each other,
but they can't do that here.
And so they kind of, you know,
sort of throw What they're both
dealing with back at each other in
a really, you know, sort of mean
Emily: way, which I love.
Yeah, no, I mean, I've been in that
situation and also like being someone
who is various shades of neuro spicy.
I've also dealt with that, you know, and
that's something that people, a lot of
people deal with in like professional
situations, whether they're at, you
know, no matter what kind of job
they're at when you have a work dynamic.
And there's this, this double speak,
you know, this double entendre of.
you know, how you've got to vent.
That tension, but you can't
say anything outright.
Mm-Hmm.
. And even in groups of people that are
very close with each other, there are
things that just people cannot, a lot
of people just can't say outright.
And a lot of, you know, it's
a lot of like a European white
shit that that comes from.
Yeah, for sure.
And I'm not saying that
other, other folks don't.
I mean, I don't know, but yeah.
That's
Amanda: the dominant culture
that we're all subject
Emily: to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's something that I've, you
know, like, struggled with as somebody
who doesn't really understand, like,
why we have to be, you know, or
has, over the years, has struggled
with trying to not be direct about
something or, you know, someone being
like, well, that's not, that's not
a what's the word I'm looking for?
You know, that's uncalled
for, or whatever.
But yeah, like, Jesus, yeah, or,
you know, and then there's also the
kind of, Jane Eyre, like, passive
compliments of the rich elite.
When they're, you know, kind of, throwing
shade at each other, but in, like, the
most intricate way possible and most,
like, you know, polite way possible,
which is, you know, it's fun when
it's on, like, Downton Abbey and shit.
Amanda: Yeah, you need a little bit
of fantastical remove, you know,
otherwise you're just like, oh,
this is what I deal with every day.
Emily: Yeah, no, that is
definitely, you need it to be,
like, magic realism for that shit
to be, like, actually acceptable.
Or you have to be Maggie Smith.
If Maggie Smith, like, said, you
know, I'm not really sure what
you're trying to do there, I'd be
like, thank you for talking to me.
But that's, you know, that's Maggie Smith.
Yeah, so.
There's one thing I wanted to
talk about with Some of the
cinematography in the movie.
So I talked about Michel Gondry
earlier and how Boots Riley has, there
was this interview where Boots Riley
was talking about how he had the,
uh, little stop action movie that
Steven lift was promoting, which is
Elana: interesting
infomercial, the infomercial,
Emily: which is not like, you know,
if he was like a super villain in
a comic book, he'd have this, like,
Russian constructivist, like, who are
the power of the future kind of shit,
and now it's like, cute stop action
animation that's a little bit uncanny
just to be charming to the kids,
because the kids love that uncanny shit.
I know.
I've seen what they do on Roblox.
But, anyway.
The point being that he, that
particular clip was credited to
a Michel Dongry, which fucking
hilarious, but that was supposedly
a, a shout out to Michel Gondry.
And apparently he was going to actually
say that it was Michel Gondry as
the director of that, but he didn't
want it to seem so much like a diss
because he actually was a big fan.
So, uh, the wordplay happened there which
is actually pretty on point considering
the subject matter of the horse people,
but the, what I will also say that I
found out about that is that that wasn't
directed by the actual individual, Michel
Gondry, but it was directed by a guy out
of the Phil Tippett studio in the Bay Area
who also worked on Mad God who Star Wars.
So a little connection.
That's cool.
Yeah, I had no idea.
Yeah, because I, when it said Michel Dony,
I'm like, wait, did he actually do this?
Because I, you know, I think this
is something that he would work on.
Mm-Hmm.
I've seen the shit he do.
Yeah.
I've seen his Lego videos.
Um, I love it.
I love
Amanda: his work.
Do we wanna
Emily: talk about the coup?
Yeah, let's talk about the coup.
You guys talk, go for it.
The Coup?
Yeah.
Boots Riley's band.
Ben: Uh oh.
I thought like, did I, what,
like, did I miss a coup in this
Elana: movie?
No.
Amanda: Sorry.
I,
Elana: I had not, I had seen his music
videos for the coup before I saw the film,
which is definitely one of the reasons
why I was like, this is going to be good.
It's because he's like always been
such a creative visual storyteller.
And I love his music.
And I definitely recommend anybody
who hasn't watched the music videos,
specifically I'd say we've got the
guillotine the magic clap, and your
parent's cocaine, I think would be
like my three top picks for his music
videos, but um, they're all, but
they're, they're all really good.
I think the first song I'd ever heard
from him was, um, Five Million Ways
to Kill a CEO, which was put on a
mix CD made for me by another union
organizer I was dating back in 2003.
So there
Amanda: you have
Emily: it.
That's amazing.
And I just want to say, like, Boots
Riley has been in this band since 1993.
Am I correct or is that, that
sounds where the band has been
Amanda: sort of Yeah, definitely
since the early nineties.
And I really wasn't that familiar with
the music until like, I think a year or
two before Celery to Bother You came out.
It was like I'm born in
85 and I'm from SoCal.
So like, just different, different
brands of transgressive, uh, like
hip hop, indie hip hop were happening
and I, I had to like sort of.
Come into it as an adult.
But, um, yeah, like, I mean, once I
discovered, like, kill, you know, kill
my landlord, it's like, what's you,
you're like, Oh, this guy gets it.
I love these
Emily: people.
I
Elana: soundtrack for
the movie was excellent.
Like all the music.
Oh, yeah, that
Ben: song.
Oh, I gotta find that song
that's going on the playlist.
Amanda: God, I should get that on vinyl.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I just got the note
vinyl for like the score and
Ben: soundtrack.
Oh, a great music reference I
loved in this movie was, Detroit
telling Cash, you sidestep more
than the fucking Temptations.
Oh,
Emily: yeah, that was good.
It was beautiful.
So good.
Dialogue is, is a plus in this movie too.
I mean, it's, interesting that we
just watched the other black girl.
Because I feel like, even though it came
out much later, you know, this, this
movie is sort of the, Stepping stones
to that I didn't think the other black
girl did it quite as well as this movie.
There's certainly elements
that are homage, but there's
these the, this discussion of.
I think it's an important contrast
to look at the discussion of survival
and dialogue and, like, you know,
plot versus dialogue and, like, these
stories that take, like, a hard left,
right, in terms of, like, what happens
in the plot, how suddenly things get
really magical or something like that.
I think it's really interesting to
watch these two kind of back to back,
because you know, the other black
girl was I think trying to do this,
but a little bit less over the top.
And it kind of, I mean, if anything,
it is just evidence of how hard it is.
To tell a story this way and the way
that Boots Riley did and I think a
Amanda: lot of that is hard.
Yeah.
And like, this is, uh, this is an
example of like a very well informed
and clearly intentional satire.
And that's why it rings so true.
And even like, you know,
y'all revisiting it, it like.
It only reinforced what you liked.
that's a sign of somebody who really
had knew what they were saying.
And, there it's a part of a long
line of great like black satires.
And a lot of them are about.
Men because that's where we're at.
But like, you know, I was just
thinking about I saw American Fiction
last weekend and you know, it's
based on a book that's from 2001.
And so even that depiction
of what, like working.
as a black person in a very
specialized field, satire is in
itself almost a time capsule.
And we have like Hollywood Shuffle,
CB4, Bamboozled, you know, there's so
many great entries into this canon,
but not enough about the specific
intersections of capitalism, race, and
gender that happened with black women.
And the other black girl misses a
lot of opportunities, unfortunately.
It's just something we talk about.
But You know, and, and sorry
to bother you wasn't perfect.
You know, Detroit is the only,
femme character with a meaningful
amount of speaking lines.
and she's the only black
femme with speaking lines.
to that degree.
And Tessa is, uh, is a multiracial person.
so we didn't even really get the joy
of seeing this character embodied
by a dark skinned black woman.
So there are very, like, real
missing elements to this too,
but but when it comes to, like,
the core of the satire, it's
Emily: just, it's so true.
In her context, do you think that the
movie is feminist or Is it just shy?
I
Amanda: think it shows the very real,
like, very real challenges that come
from trying to move as a feminist, in
a black woman's body in where she is,
and even with her privileges You know,
the best she could really do is a form
of sort of, respectability reinvention
by adopting the black Brit voice, which
is, you know, in itself a signifier
of, oh, you can listen to me because
I'm not one of your black people.
I'm, I'm a special one that
came over imported, especially
for a reason, I'm sure.
So you're going to listen to me.
And, you know, so there, there's a lot to
do with Detroit, but, you know, there's
not a lot of room for Detroit story.
But what we get and what it
serves is very real and good.
Um, so, you know, I wouldn't
like diss it too much, but,
you know, these are very real.
you know, missing pieces
from the conversation.
But, you know, that's why we need
more black women making these movies.
You know, I'm not, I'm not putting
these tasks up to any old body, you
know, just give black women the money
to make things the way they should make
Emily: them.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Or just give money.
Amanda: Yeah, give them money.
Money.
Yeah.
Money, please.
Yes.
Ben: Money now.
Money, please.
Lots of money.
No more saying anything.
Now.
Elana: I also think about like,
you know, did Boots make anything
between this and the recent TV series?
Amanda: I don't think so.
I don't think so either.
And I don't
Elana: know what.
You know, it makes you think about,
like, this movie was, I think,
considered a success, and like, it
makes you think about how much time
it took to get the capital to be
able to do the next project, right?
It's like, what the fuck?
Ben: I mean, it, for this kind
of a movie, definitely a success.
I mean, this had a 3.
2 million dollar budget, made.
18, over 18 million dollars at the
box office, which it should have made
a hell of a lot more, but for that
budget, I mean, that is a heck of a
lot of profit for such a small budget.
So definitely a financial
success, this film.
Amanda: If you were just replicating
this equation, regardless of what the
movie was, if that person, like, if
they would have been put on the conveyor
belt of that, that all Hollywood film
directors are put on, you know, they,
Disney didn't come knocking saying do,
uh, the Eternals, you know what I mean?
Oh my God.
Can you imagine?
He's not corruptible and, you know,
um, and so it's very clear to go
Ben: rewatch candy man now.
Amanda: Yeah, there's a reason like where
did the Jordan Peele fanaticism go after?
No when we got a movie where he's
talking about some shit that we
don't really want to talk about.
You know, even though in
that movie did well to
Emily: Nope is such a, I think
Nope is one of, I think my
favorite movies of his for sure.
Great film.
Amanda: Yeah, I mean, everyone still
loves him as a creator, but like, the
mainstream media machine that just
cranks out endless promotional content
and, you know, propping people up as
icons, like, you know, the magazine
covers kind of stopped happening.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't, think that the, uh, pandemic
or anything is any sort of excuse either.
I mean, I think about that.
Amanda: Not really, given what
we've seen media do since then.
Yes, yes.
And,
Elana: and also if there's anybody who
I feel like could do a really amazing
visual job without even having to rely
on actor actors, like, he made amazing
work with puppets, let me tell you.
Oh my
Amanda: god.
I'm waiting for the, I'm waiting
for his pure puppet movie.
That's got to be happening.
Wouldn't it be
Elana: amazing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, and I'm, I'm so appreciative
of his public education work.
He does talking about organizing and,
you know, he's spoken recently a lot
more about being black and Jewish,
which I think is really important.
Um, and folks follow Boots,
you know, he's pretty freaking
Ben: cool.
I didn't know Boots Riley was Jewish.
Yeah.
Emily: Very cool.
Ben: learned something
Elana: today.
As Jewish people, it is our job
to constantly be really excited
about learning about who's
Jewish, so I just understand why
the email functions just now.
From
Ben: a global perspective, not
a lot of us, so it's always
exciting when you find a new one.
Emily: It's so true.
Mm-Hmm.
this movie talks about race and
uh, I think we talked about that.
Is there anything else that
we haven't talked about?
Ben: Well, yeah.
Is there any elements of like, what
this movie discusses in terms of
race or its themes and messages that
we didn't cover that we wanna make
sure to tackle before we sign off?
Emily: I do want to mention Mr.
Bleep.
Because
Ben: Yes, we didn't talk much about Mr.
Bleep.
Yeah, so God, how good did
fucking Amara Khan look?
Like, that outfit, like, I know it was
all surreal, but the eyepatch, the bowler
hat, the mutton chop mustache, like,
the jacket, oh my god, what a fucking
Emily: look.
Yeah, it was a really great look, but
when I saw Cash with that head bandage,
it's his head would not stop bleeding,
too, which I think is also symbolic.
But When I see him with that
head bandage, and then Mr.
Bleep with his eye patch, there
started to be a little bit more context
there for me, where, you know, Mr.
Bleep had some kind of encounter
that he's just sort of,
Ben: dealt with.
It makes you wonder, what did
he give up to get where he is?
Wow.
Elana: Yeah.
Amanda: Yes, yes, very much so.
The mutilation.
The like active mutilation, you know, that
we go through that the extraction does.
And it's just really playfully done.
Also the like, vaguely clockwork
orange informed attire on you.
Ben: Very much so.
Oh, that's what it's evoking.
Yes.
Yes.
Amanda: It's sort of this like, I,
yes, I'm going to sort of, you know,
take what's given to me and really
kind of give you a maximized sort of.
Power guy, realness, power
violence ultimate, ultimate,
ultra violence, capitalism man,
Emily: and prepared.
Yeah, there's so much going on with that
character visually for a character that
we rarely hear speak from his actual
voice, that speaks from who he is as a
person, as opposed to what he represents.
You know, as an artist,
I really appreciate that.
And then movies when people can
really get that across with a outfit.
And what also that character says about
survival, desperation and race in this
capitalist machine, you know, and a
lot of what Cash does, his motivations.
In order to just survive, you know,
he doesn't, it's not a casual thing
that he buys in, you know, it's
not him just deciding, because,
you know, he was initially with the
strike and everything, and then they,
they reward him with a promotion.
Right, which is classic, but he also is,
uh, desperate, you know, and that's of.
Infinitely old method of the entrapment.
And, you know, it also reminds me
of, like, what didn't work with the
other black girl, because there were
all these, uh, litmus tests of the
right, you know, we're not sure what
the right and wrong kind of survival
is, according to this, according to
the other black girls narrative movie.
We, we sort of see.
All of that that desperation and
we're sort of like, along with
Cassius, we're struggling with it,
but, you know, we see where it can be
acceptable and where we don't really
need, you know, we can't really judge.
Yeah.
Amanda: And I think that's like
a great example of like, where.
settings matter and like the veneer of
professionalism and the way that, that,
that publishing environment is classed,
you know, as a, you know, like you're,
you've already been through like a
system that puts you in a place where
you will be At home there and even, you
know, and Nella is supposed to be, you
know, a sort of success case for that.
And she's still struggling because
it wasn't meant for her to be there,
but you're dealing with sort of.
More nuanced levels because we're
talking about people for whom their
core survival needs are still met.
And I think that's what's so
great about sorry to bother you.
It's it takes us to the ground level
about the average worker, which is most
of us who don't really get the choice.
Elana: Choose
Amanda: to be in an environment
that treats us this way.
There's, uh, you know, at least Nella
has a choice and the book could do
better work with how she uses those
choices and how they're analyzed.
But in the case of sorry to bother you,
we're talking about like the literal,
like, you know, bare feet on the
pavement, precarity of losing your home.
And that's like, you know, that's the
base level violence of this country
is we're constantly taking people
from their homes, evicting them
from their homes from the jump and,
you know, as violently as possible.
And That's partially why it's so clear
because we're talking about very like
real material realities that people
are facing and when you're dealing with
like a professionalism environment,
you just have to do more work.
You know, that's,
Emily: uh, the other black girl's
Ben: problem to deal with.
I feel like that's America's attitude.
It's like, why even let you have
homes if not to take them away?
That's the dream.
That's the real American dream.
The dream of the society
is just to eternally keep
kicking people out of homes.
One of the
Elana: pieces I actually want to make
sure I also shout out for the movie
is the production design for, sorry to
bother you, it's the production design.
the way the call center office
is set up is like, Really dead on
that particular kind of falling
apart, rotting inside, like, office
space with cubicles like that.
And, like, you could just, like,
feel the mold in the walls.
Yeah, you know, like, you know, you're
going to get an environmental headache
spending too much time in that room.
Yeah.
Um, it was really well designed
and the bar spaces as well.
When we see them there, the, the car,
like with the windshield wipers on the
string and its own musical soundtrack.
I, I actually, I don't, I didn't
look up the credits for it, but
everything really working on the
production design was really.
Like, making a point about, like, these
aspects of the, what you see on the screen
are an important part of the storytelling.
And I think for anybody who's had, like,
really shitty office jobs, like, the kind
of thing where, like, they pretend that
it's, like, because you're not, like,
doing physical labor, it's, like, clearly
this, like, bougie thing, and you're
like, but it's really not, guys, it's not.
Amanda: You're just in a windowless room.
Elana: Yeah, this was such a good
depiction of that particular kind
of work and he's put on commission
Emily: variance.
Yeah.
And the personal experience of
being in, like, being a telemarketer
and having to interrupt somebody.
Like that whole cinematic, yes, people
Ben: in drops down when they're
having sex and eating stuff and
yeah, buying cell phone materials.
Emily: Yeah, I also learned
about what is it called?
the, or mind of the Congo.
I didn't know that that was a thing.
You know, I'm going to totally admit my
my ignorance, but I did look that up and
Ben: is that real?
Is that a real thing?
Yes.
Yeah, I saw and I'm like,
not looking anything up.
I'm like, this is either real.
Or a reference to the 1995 film Congo.
Emily: Do they talk about weird,
like, magic metal in Congo?
I don't know.
I haven't
Ben: seen it since I was like, seven?
But like, and again, I
didn't bother to look it up.
Or else I would have known that it
was real instead of being like, I
wondered, thought about looking it up.
I
Emily: mean, I would suggest
anybody look that up.
I'm so sorry, Alicia, because I am
going to look this up right now.
So I have the right, terminology
because I have it on my phone.
Um, that's the
Ben: sound of me looking things snip this
out and we pretend that Emily found it.
Lickity
Emily: split.
Um,
Ben: This is all getting edited out.
This is the time to tell
your darkest secrets.
Yeah, I'll get caught.
Emily: Is it Coltrane?
wait,
Amanda: are you talking about
what they're, what they're mining?
Oh, yeah.
Ben: Yes, what they referenced.
Amanda: Yes.
Colton, yeah, is the main
one, but it's also Cobalt.
Emily: Cobalt, yeah.
I feel like
Ben: the evils that must go into Rare.
metal mining, rare earth mining.
It's just so fucked up, but I'm sure it
Elana: must be.
It's powering
Amanda: the devices that we're using.
But we're
Elana: just
Ben: so unwilling to look at it, because
otherwise we'd have to confront just
how essential it is to all of our
Emily: modern society.
Yeah, like the lithium being
a little bit more of a limited
source than fossil fuels.
Oops a daisy.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there
that I would recommend looking up.
it can be upsetting.
So, you know, but it's good to know.
But yeah, coltan mining the coltan
element is really important for, or
I, I shouldn't say the issue is really
important because the coltan metal is
used for, like, Any sort of I think it's
like heat insulation for cell phones, for
computers, for pretty much any computing.
Thank you movie for making that
putting that on my radar because I
otherwise like it's not talked about
in the video, which is fucked up.
You know, there's a lot of very
Amanda: much.
I mean, it's part of the reason
why Congo is in like month.
Eight or nine of a conflict that's
fully driven by the West's Yeah.
Greed for what's in their earth.
And millions are suffering and dead.
So it's like, and these are
things that we could know
Elana: them.
We
Ben: live
Amanda: in a country that expressly
limits our access to that information,
and you have to be at such a level of
extra time and money to want to and
have the time to go into that stuff that
like You know, it's also kind of a self
insulating problem because people who
know this information are also among
the richest of us and the most you know,
holding stake for keeping things this
Emily: way.
But I do want to commend
the movie for that.
I think that in terms of like propagating
ideas, spreading information, you know,
a lot of the things we talk about on this
podcast that how films work that way.
You know, this is a very literal
example of one of these movies actually
bringing something to the table, you
know, that, I mean, you can't trust
everything that's said in movies,
but, you know, we can look it up.
Those of us who can look it up, you know,
we can look it up and, you know, there's
a lot of us that could probably look
up things more often, myself included.
But this kind of, uh, richness of the
conversation in the movie of what these
characters are talking about and what
they're referring to in that context.
Mm-Hmm.
, can be really important.
And, you know, from a movie about
like, saving the world from a
horrible organization that's
making people into horse people.
You know, there's so many things
that like, just like a lot of horror
discusses really, really important
subjects and heavy subjects.
This is a prime example of a film
that brings so much while being
fun, while being horrifying, while
being engaging and very watchable.
You know, this isn't the Babadook.
This isn't like something that
is just like, look how fucking,
look how fucked up this is.
You know, this is
Ben: this is such a good movie.
I love this film.
Yeah.
Emily: I mean, and we've talked
to the movie talks about class.
The only like, L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
I.
A.
stuff that's in there is things
that are on Detroit's shirt.
She
Ben: tells Salvador and cash to kiss.
Does that count?
There's a
Emily: lot of chemistry, but I mean,
like, that's, you know, if it's fan
fiction level, you know, I don't I'm
not credit for that so much unless it's
like, Christopher Walken in the prophecy,
like, going around kissing dudes.
That's 1 of those things where I'm like,
there's something to this, but yeah,
this movie isn't really discussing that.
I don't think it needs to.
In this case it's something that I
think is well discussed in, the but
that's again, a different movie, such
Amanda: a funny movie.
I've been trying to
Elana: think about how the
movie talks about disability
or, or doesn't in this case.
Amanda: Yeah, it's so, it's so, uh, not.
It's pointed out like in dialogue.
It's, there's a lot of clues to people
being disabled, but not an argument.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah.
Elana: I mean, you can see like
with Terry Cruz's character, right?
Like, you can see like how a life
in which you're housing is that
precarious can like create the kind
of situations where it's easier to
develop diabetes when you're older.
Like, yeah, like that's right in there.
And you see these people signing
their lives away to join.
What's it called?
Corporation worry free.
We're free so they can get, you know,
guaranteed food and housing and I think
about how like goodwill is still pays
disabled workers below minimum wage
legally to work there as if they're
like doing as if they're doing the
workers like a favor for employing
them at all in the first place.
Yeah it's, it feels like
it's right dancing around the
edges of the movie and a bit.
Emily: Yeah,
So, would we all recommend this movie?
Yes!
Ben: All the time!
Every day of the week!
Elana: Yes!
Amanda: Required watching.
It was an instant classic when it came
out and it only gets more relevant and
rewarding to think about as we go on.
Ben: Agreed.
Oh, such a good movie.
Emily: I think the only reason I hadn't
seen it sooner is that I knew that I was
going to watch it for the podcast, so
I wanted to like, keep a clean slate.
But, I mean, that's not really an excuse.
It's been out since 2018.
So, uh, sorry.
Never a bad time
Ben: to watch it.
That's true.
Except, I guess, 2017 or
earlier, when it did not exist.
That was a terrible time to watch it!
Emily: The album was out.
The Coup actually has an album that
was based on the screenplay that
Boots Riley wrote, but he didn't
really have any way to make the movie.
That's wild.
That's cool as hell.
So I also recommend that.
What do y'all have to recommend?
for someone who enjoyed this
film, well, definitely the
Elana: music videos that I
mentioned for sure the coup.
Emily: Mm hmm.
Yeah,
Elana: but I am struggling to think
of another movie that I thought
really did a good job of looking at.
worker organizing or union organizing
that was also like fun in the same way.
Like, I hate people are always
like, Ilana, you should come in my
podcast to talk about labor movies.
And we'll talk about salt of the earth.
And I'm like, I'm so glad that movie
exists, but like, that's actually
like, we can't have that be the
answer to like what organizing.
Yeah.
Or mate one.
And I'm like, we need more.
Kinds of movies like that.
I'm going to
Ben: recommend another movie about
community activism and collective action
against the economic oligarchy class.
So I'm recommending step
up to electric boogaloo.
Cool.
I couldn't come up with
anything real, so I'm like, the
Emily: themes do overlap!
Amanda: By the way, Step Up 2's
title is Stepped Up 2 the Streets.
Uh, and that is one of the best
Step Up movies, by the way.
It's very good.
The first one is like
Ben: Oh, I'm thinking
of break into electric.
Emily: Oh, you're going to break into.
Elana: I have thoughts on breaking too.
I can, I have, I as an example
of community organizing in
movies, anyway, fun, fun, fun.
So yes,
Emily: the themes do overlap.
Excellent.
Amanda, what are your,
uh, recommendations?
Amanda: Gosh, well, because I've
mentioned it a couple times already,
I'm gonna recommend Nope is like
another transgressive movie about
black exploitation, but in this
case, it's about, uh, our image.
Our likenesses as opposed
to our literal bodies.
And everything that it has to say, it
just gives you a lot to think about.
And also Kiki Palmer's performance, just,
you know, honorary Oscar in my mind.
And Todd, is there a
book I can recommend too?
I feel like I haven't
recommended a book in a minute.
that's really good.
And, I'll also recommend, since we were
talking about Black Femmes on the music
tip, there is this incredible book.
It's very thorough and big,
but I recommend it because
it's beautifully written.
It's called Liner Notes for the
Revolution, and it's This just
incredible work, uh, of archive, like,
of archiving and music writing about
not only, like, a century of Black
women's sound in music It's also about
the Black critics of their times that
were writing about their music and how
they were in dialogue with the times.
Gorgeously written book.
Just Can't recommend it enough.
Rent it at the library.
Yeah, it took me like four,
uh, borrows to get through it.
Worth it.
Ben: One other recommendation I
have that's not break into Electric
Boogaloo, and that is, the comic
series Farmhand by Rob Gilroy.
Emily: Nice.
Ooh, I need to read that.
Yes.
Ben: Very good.
Emily: My, oh, I have
something comics wise.
Elana: Yes.
If you're, if, if you happen to enjoy
the combination of superheroes and
critiques of Henry Kissinger and the US
foreign policies to cap capitalism, yes.
Then you might wanna read a series that is
now gonna be available in trade paperback.
Waller versus Wildstorm from Spencer
Ackerman, Jesus Marino, and Michael
Atiyah, DC Black Label Comics.
You don't need to know Wildstorm
to appreciate how good this is.
Just imagine a Pulitzer Prize, a
world winning journalist writing Lois
Lane and like, it's all about all
the fucking dirty shit the US does
to other countries and espionage.
And and also Deathstroke
on a jet ski for fun.
But, if folks want to hear more
about that, you can listen to my
two interviews with Spencer on
my podcast, Graphic Policy Radio.
Graphic Policy Radio is the
podcast, but yeah, Waller vs.
Wildstorm is, is the comic.
Amanda: I need to
Emily: read that.
I was going to say I was going
to recommend y'all's podcast.
Yeah, Waller vs.
Wildstorm.
DC Black Label.
Well, yeah, learn a bit more, uh,
about that on, uh, Graphic Policy.
One thing I would love to recommend
is this series on YouTube called
Crime Pays and Botany Doesn't.
Hmm.
It is a Chicago.
Amanda: That's my guy.
I love him.
Emily: Yes, Chicago, like Chicago
born guy lives in Oakland and
goes around and discusses.
All the different kinds of effects
that development has on nature and
city planning that incorporates trees
and wildlife, or I should say, let
me start that over, city planning
that incorporates non native flora,
as opposed to native trees and plants
that are beneficial and wildlife.
Not water how do you say their
drought, things like that.
Yeah.
And he's also really funny off the cuff.
Very, very classic Chicago accent guy.
But yeah, it's all on YouTube and
you learn a lot of things about.
Stamens, the stamens, the
motherfucking beautiful stamens.
Amanda: Yeah, he's got some
specific call outs for, like,
flora parts that are very funny.
I also really love when he's just, the
vibing videos, where it's just 40 minutes
of him walking with another plant expert
through like, the, like, O'Hawken Mountain
cloud forest or whatever and talking about
like rare mushrooms that they're finding
and identifying on the spot and talking
about like, that stuff is great too.
You just, uh, yeah, a great
personality dispensing good
Emily: information.
Yeah.
And, um, advocate of guerrilla gardening,
which I love, you know, kill your lawn.
let it die, grow some, succulents or grow
local native wild flowers and trees and
Elana: stuff.
And that's very, Oakland and New York
City are two of like the hotbeds of the
Emily: guerrilla gardening movement.
Elana: So very appropriate to talk
about that during this episode.
Amanda: Yeah, I live not too far from,
uh, from a few black owned farms that
kind of started a lot of sort of like bits
of land rematriation bits of, you know,
fertile farming in public spaces, bits of
folks doing foods, food and crop swaps.
And that's like growing very heavily
in Los Angeles, especially in the
middle of the city where I live.
And I.
Highly recommend if you live in Los
Angeles County and have any land you
can get a rebate for killing your
lawn, which is something that we're
doing because the home that us in
our co op bought was sold to us with
a big ass lawn that we didn't want.
So highly recommend it.
Uh, the rebate will cover almost all
of the cost of switching out your shit.
Emily: I love it.
Nice.
So, uh, where can we hear more
about You all, we're going to
start I know we talked, we talked
a little bit about graphic policy.
Amanda, do you have other
things that you want to promote?
Tell us where we can find you.
Gosh, yeah,
Amanda: I mean, you can
find me on the internet.
I am, uh, an editor and I
work with a number of clients
right now, including Hasbro.
I'm doing a lot of stuff
with Wizards of the Coast.
There's a couple of books that I've worked
on that are coming out later this year.
Like D& D, The Fallbacks Book One.
And a couple of comics, uh, there was
just a reissue of Frankie Comics by
Rachel Dukes and I really love the
paperback reissue and, uh, yeah, you
can find me on Instagram at Megamandr
I'm not really on the bad place Twitter
anymore, so don't, I mean, don't bother
and I have a linktree, uh, linktree.
com slash meadowsamanda to find
Emily: all the other little
things that are going on.
Nice.
Oana, tell us more about where
else other than graphic policy.
Elana: Yes, so other than podcasting
I am actually on Blue Sky a fair
amount where I am at my handle
which is L E V I N, my last name.
I am also still on the bad place
somewhat because it is literally
part of my work to do that.
So if you are there, I'm at ELANA
underscore Brooklyn, which is also my
handle on, um, threads, which I have
to also explore for work reasons, but
Graphic Policy Radio is my podcast.
We are at the intersection of comics
and movements for social change.
And we also have a side podcast talking
about Star Trek Deep Space Nine called
Deep Space Dive all in the same place.
Ben: Yes.
Oh, I love Deep Space Nine.
Me too.
Elana: It's the best.
My most recent episode was about non
binary characters in the series, so.
Emily: I know.
Gotta
Ben: look that up.
Uh, it is the queerest of the old
school track by the largest of margins.
There's
Emily: a lot of, a lot of things
that Deep Space Nine is the est of.
Yes.
The best of.
Ben: Well, I am glad we do get,
you know, now we have characters
like, Stamets and Mariner.
Yeah.
Oh, Captain Angel.
I cannot wait for Captain Angel's return.
Emily: And where else can we hear
about your Star Trek opinions, Ben?
Ben: Uh, yes, you can hear about
my Star Trek opinions whenever I
interject Star Trek into my podcast,
Progressively Horrified, which I co host
with Jeremy Whitley and Emily Martin.
New episodes come out every Friday,
and you can catch that wherever you
Emily: caught this one.
Yes, we're on Progressively
Horrified at transistor.
fm, ProgHorrorPod on the BAD
website, but we're also on Patreon.
Check us out, Progressively
Horrified, on Patreon.
Maybe sign up.
At least follow.
I know there's a free follow tier now.
You can do Patreons for free.
I'm accepting it as a
Patreon owner myself.
Ben, do you have any other
places that we can follow you?
The, the
Ben: individual?
Captain Laser Hawk, the Manko out
from Tokyo Pop based on the Shankar
series on Netflix is out in stores now.
Definitely check that out.
And
you can find all my other various books,
uh, pros and comics@benconcomics.com.
Emily: Nice.
And I'm mega moth on a lot of things
on Blue Sky, on the Dying Twitter's
mega moth on Instagram, mega moth.net.
Mega moth on Patreon, et al.
But come and visit us on Prague Horror
Pod, progressive, horrified, transistor.
And then Jeremy, our hearts go out
to you and your survival of the
hurricane and you can find Jeremy
at jroom58 on Twitter, jeremywhitley
at, uh, bluesky jeremywhitley.
com, and hopefully he'll be back next
week with internet, but thank you.
Unless
Ben: the hurricane comes back.
Emily: If there's more
hurricanes, who knows these days.
Ah, climate change, am I right?
Anyway thank you all for seeing me through
this process, but thank you all for good.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us.
Always great to have you as guests.
And thank you, Ben for rooting for me.
And thank you listener for just
everything that you do, as long as
it's nice and remember, stay horrified.
Cause.
It's the least you can
do in this day and age.
Mm, clap.
Elana: Hey, this is Elana
from Graphic Policy.
I may have mentioned that I
have spent a number of years
working in the labor movement.
On the episode I talk about how great
it is that Sorry to Bother You features
an actual professional union organizer
showing up to help organize a workplace.
But I don't want to give people
the impression that you need
to wait for a union to send an
organizer to your workplace.
There actually are a lot of paths
you can take to forming a union
or even just organizing with your
co workers for better treatment
on the job, even without a union.
There's a few projects I want to
refer you to that are all online.
One of them is the largest labor
federation in the USA, which is
the AFL CIO, has a resource and
contact people on their website.
Go there and get resources and contact
folks at the unions for advice.
The website is A F L C I O
dot O R G slash form a union.
That's A F L C I O dot O
R G slash form a union.
There was also a project led by a number
of union organizer members of DSA, to
offer advice to folks who are trying
to unionize and offer them support.
And that was called The Emergency
Workplace Organizing Committee and
their website is worker organizing.org.
There's also a petition website called
coworker.org that helps workers use
digital tools for free and helps
workplace petitions and really organize.
It can start with something as
simple as an online petition.
Now, if you, you're a gig worker, there
are a number of existing projects that you
can join in, like gig workers rising.org.
And if you're a worker in the arts, the S.
O.
L.
Center is starting something new that
you'll want to get on their email list.
It's S.
O.
L.
Center dot work, S.
O.
L.
like the sun, S.
O.
L.
dot W.
O.
R.
K.
I have also seen that the National
Labor Relations Board, which is
the government agency, That helps
protect the right to unionize.
They have resources on their website
now too, because actually the
government wants you to form a union.
and that website is nlrb.
gov.
What a time to be alive.
Remember, workers coming together to
fight for a better workplace is actually
the only way that things have ever
gotten better for workers, period.
So, as they say on the end of
Captain Planet, the power is yours.